The LIMSforum group is moving from Linkedin

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All, it is with regret that I must make the decision to leave Linkedin as the forum for our group. Linkedin has planned changes that will make this group unworkable. We believe strongly in open information and Linkedin is planning changes that...

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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 6, 2015 9:02 am
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Here are the most disturbing changes that have caused me to now work to move the LIMSforum group from Linkedin:

All Groups Are Now Private Groups
Our research has shown that professional conversations are most effective in a private trusted space, so conversations in groups won't be visible until you've joined the group.

I feel that moderated, open discussions is vital. Why hide a discussion. I do not want to force someone to join the group just to read a discussion that is otherwise open to the public.

Content Moderation
Timeliness and high engagement go hand-in-hand and are key to a successful group.

To ensure groups are effective as timely conversation forums, conversations will now be posted instantly to a group without the need for manager approval.
Group owners, managers, and moderators can still remove off-topic conversations and place members in moderation.
Other group members can also flag inappropriate comments and conversations after they've been posted.

This is the most vial policy change of all. Linkedin groups were bad about spam already. This stupid policy will make matters much worse and much harder on me as a group owner.

Member Approval in Standard Groups
When a member requests to join a Standard Group, their connections in the group can approve the request. Group owners and managers can also approve any request to join.

This policy is insane. It too will lead to more spam and a poor quality group.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 6, 2015 1:30 pm
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What a bummer
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Posted by Colleen DeBruyn (Discussions: 0, Comments: 2)
Replied on October 6, 2015 4:30 pm
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Yes, a bummer to say the least. Fortunately we won't lose anything in the move to the new site and things can continue as usual. This group will stay open until everything and everyone is transitioned over to the new venue. I just have a whole new level of work that will be foisted on me to try and keep the spam out.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 6, 2015 4:30 pm
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Many of the changes that LinkedIn proposes to add will increase their ad revenue and decrease their overall value to existing members who use the groups to obtain information or for help troubleshooting problems. They have done nothing to reduce the amount of submitted SPAM or made any attempt to remove all of the fake member accounts or members in violation of their own Users Agreement (example: Section 8.1 and 8.2.). They plan on removing the optional "Promotions" tab (which has proven to be useless as no one uses it correctly) and instead move all submitted Promotional content to the manager for approval. However, 99% of all promotional content is in fact not submitted to the Promotional area where it belongs so now LinkedIn will automatically approve and post it in the main Discussion area (where the manager/moderators will have to deal with it).

It is a shame to see the original value they initially created now diluted down to very little. They have made it clear that membership account numbers and ad revenue matter far more than the content or enforcing their own guidelines to maintain a safe site.
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Posted by Bill Letter (Discussions: 1, Comments: 18)
Replied on October 6, 2015 7:30 pm
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Yup. Just read through the new LinkedIn policies. They are making a mess out of things. They do not fundamentally understand community dynamics.
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Posted by Roger A. Maduro (Discussions: 0, Comments: 12)
Replied on October 7, 2015 9:30 am
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Yes, a big mess. In fact, not only are the policies worthless and counter productive, their software does not work and is hit or miss. Yesterday, one of my subgroup managers from the Chromatography subgroup (Bill Letter) posted a comment to this discussion, I approved it and it has never shown. I have noticed a lot of that lately. It could be that their software is so flawed that they are having to make policy changes to make up for the defective software. There could be a serious scaling issue for their software. They of course are not telling us that, so they might be making new policies to compensate for it and then spinning it as if they wanted to make these changes and that everything is an improvement.

It is obvious that these so called improvements are several steps backwards and I for one am moving away because of it. I have invested all that I plan to invest in Linkedin and it is time to move one with a pure open source solution that I implement myself that will not be subject to the whims of social media children.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 7, 2015 9:30 am
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I have been a long time reader. Never contributed though but gained a lot. Looking forward to link to new link as you suggested.
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Posted by Asif Khan (Discussions: 0, Comments: 4)
Replied on October 7, 2015 11:11 am
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Hi Asif, I am glad the group has been of help. I will be posting another announcement when the new site is ready to be used. You can get a preview of it at: http://www.limsforum.com Keep in mind the site is not yet ready for use and there is much there but there is much that is not there and not everything works but I do expect the release in about 2 months.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 7, 2015 11:13 am
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Thanks for the update John.
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Posted by Jonathan Sheridan (Discussions: 0, Comments: 1)
Replied on October 7, 2015 2:18 pm
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Thanks John. I live in under developing world known for all the wrong reasons. LIMS has been my software development subject over the last seventeen years. We try to improve based on how local businesses react to processes, controls and efficiencies. We have now moved to cloud technologies bringing lims into health eco system. Your understanding and forum discussion has been immense source to calibrate efforts. Looking forward to joining your lims forum.

Asif
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Posted by Asif Khan (Discussions: 0, Comments: 4)
Replied on October 7, 2015 2:18 pm
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my comment later has been suppressed. The one in which in whihc you referred a link has also been edited out.
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Posted by Asif Khan (Discussions: 0, Comments: 4)
Replied on October 7, 2015 2:18 pm
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Asif, it is clear that Linkedin is having some serious issues with their software. The sooner we get the group moved the better it will be. At least when a user reports a bug, I can go in and fix it, unlike Linkedin where I have no options and simply have to live with what they say.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 7, 2015 2:20 pm
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John, looking forward to it. As I mentioned during our panel at the OSEHRA conference, I find the Limsforum site to be the best site for a health IT community. And I don't say that lightly. Doing research for my articles in Open Health News I spend a huge amount of time looking through sites. Being able to tie it all together will be very good. As the same time, I am disappointed at LinkedIn. I have come to rely on LinkedIn to stay in touch with people and events as well as to reach out to people I don't know. Some of that will be lost, I fear, with the move. At the same time I don't see any other option.
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Posted by Roger A. Maduro (Discussions: 0, Comments: 12)
Replied on October 7, 2015 3:16 pm
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Roger, I will not move things until this is all working as expected. I am in the same boat as you. I have come to rely upon Linkedin and will not agree to losing things that I have come to know and use with success. The two systems will run parallel until we are certain that the users can do everything they are doing now. We are not going to replicate Linkedin. We are going to leverage it and allow users to login with Linkedin so they do not need to have yet another login. They will be able to click on a profile and it will take them to Linkedin to do person to person communications. So I don't think there will be any loss of features and in reality, there will actually be much more than Linkedin by itself.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 7, 2015 3:23 pm
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John, this is the best forum I have ever come across with rich content and valuable analysis of you at every stages. We don't want to miss this opportunities to interact with industry leaders. Look forward for alternative forum to stay in touch
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Posted by Somnath Mukherjee PMP® (Discussions: 5, Comments: 22)
Replied on October 8, 2015 9:24 am
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Well, I have to post this... A member just posted a response to this discussion and like Bill Letter's comment, it is not showing up. However, it is showing up at the new LIMSforum site.

This is clearly a bug with Linkedin. To see all of the comments to this discussion visit: http://www.limsforum.com/?rdpingroupsid=2069898&rdpingroupspostid=2069898-6057147195600232453

You will get to see first hand how the new site will work. Keep in mind it is under construction but this is a peek at where we are going.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 8, 2015 9:29 am
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Hi John,
congratulations I think it was a good decision, the new site looks excellent !
Herbert
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Posted by Herbert Schwarz (Discussions: 0, Comments: 3)
Replied on October 8, 2015 11:06 am
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Thanks Herbert. The site development continues and unlike Linkedin, everyone will be able to speak directly with the developer (me) to fix things when things are broken or need to be improved for a better user experience.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 8, 2015 11:26 am
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Wow. That is really cool. I had no idea you could do that!
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Posted by Roger A. Maduro (Discussions: 0, Comments: 12)
Replied on October 8, 2015 1:51 pm
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Yep, you can do this. We are using the JSON data feed for the groups that we used through the Linkedin API. It is pretty much read only so there is more work to do.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 8, 2015 1:54 pm
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Sorry John but I have to disagree. I think moving this group off of LinkedIn is a mistake. Granted I do not see all the posts that you do so I have no idea how much spam is really trying to be foisted off on us.

Besides, if we get a bunch of spam can't we, the members, flag the content and then that person's posts will be forced into moderation on EVERY group?

I do not see the issue with the private versus public nature of the forum. If anyone wants to join, now anyone can approve so in essence it is still pretty public.

Also, if you need some help with moderating the group, I would be happy to volunteer to sign up as a moderator.

Of course, at the end of the day, it is your group. But as one of the best LinkedIn groups that I participate in, I would hate to see it go away.

Best,
Howei
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Posted by Howard Rosenberg (Discussions: 15, Comments: 58)
Replied on October 8, 2015 3:19 pm
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Howard, it is not really going away exactly. The group will still be here. It will simply be managed very different from the way it is managed today and the discussions will be in an independent database from Linkedin. We already have a complete archive of all discussions and comments.

There are numerous problems with Linkedin at a technical level as well as a policy level that are not getting better but simply getting worse. People post and their posts do not show but show at the new site. That one by itself is a big deal. As for the moderation... I am going to have to see how that goes. I will resist the urge to judge it based on what they have written and will wait to see how it is actually implemented. Who knows, it may be a non-issue.

As for the group being public vs. non-public. I believe strongly in public, open venues. It works and it drives membership and engagement. To cut that off will effectively reduce the traffic and vibrant interaction. People find this group based upon google searches on topics our group covers. That would be lost if not for the fact that we have a public archive of all content.

So we will keep the group at Linkedin but I see it as a read only group that mirrors our new public group that will be at http://www.limsforum.com. The users will have a much richer experience and functionality at the new site and they will be able to login with their Linkedin credentials so that the experience between Linkedin and LIMSforum is seamless.

Things will remain exactly as they are now until Linkedin initiates their changes. Their changes will break the LIMSforum group because the group will be forced into a private state. At that point we will see where things stand. Until then... no changes.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 8, 2015 4:46 pm
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Same rules at this group apply to the new group. Here are the rules of this Linkedin group:

1. Follow the Linkedin rules

1. Be kind and not rude and never use curse words

1. Respect fellow members privacy and do not send them messages as part of a spam campaign

1. Do not spam (you know what spam is).

1. Do not post jobs in the discussion area

1. Do not post jobs in the promotion area

1. Do not post promotions in the discussion area

1. Do not post copyrighted material

1. Do not post untrue, false or malicious information

1. Do not post information (even if it is true) that would harm someone or some company

1. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

1. If you want to post a job, post it to the LabCareers subgroup

1. Please submit all postings and comments in English

1. Do not start or participate in a "Flame War" Defined: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_(Internet)

15. You agree that all discussions and comments you post are licensed under Creative Commons per the Linkedin User Agreement: https://www.linkedin.com/legal/user-agreement Section 3.3.5 and that this content may be shared and or distributed under the Creative Commons license.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 8, 2015 5:07 pm
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Sorry about all the number 1's, but this is yet another defect in Linkedin software. It just gets better.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 8, 2015 5:08 pm
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What I would like to see addressed is some of the serious shortcomings of LinkedIn's discussion threads. I have seen some fantastic discussions in LinkedIn, many of them in this very group. Yet, when they die down, they basically disappear. Very hard to find old discussions and to search for key terms through existing discussion groups. It basically forces me to do manual searches to find something I remember I saw some time ago. In this day and age, it's a very basic and primitive discussion platform that lacks most of the tools one finds in any modern discussion group.
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Posted by Roger A. Maduro (Discussions: 0, Comments: 12)
Replied on October 8, 2015 5:27 pm
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Roger, the new venue addresses that. We have a complete archive of all discussions and comments in the LIMSforum. We have more in our archive than is available directly in the Linkedin group. It will all be searchable. Unfortunately, we do not have anything other than this group.

Also, we did make a google custom search that you could use to search across all Linkedin public groups because google indexed all of them. This would allow you to do what you cannot do in Linkedin. You could search across all groups.

The search facility I made for Linkedin groups still exists: http://www.limsbook.com/archived-discussions/

Do a search on something you are interested in and see what comes back. Remember, Linkedin is killing this ability since they are making all groups private and therefore Google will no longer be able to crawl the content and index it. Therefore it will no longer be searchable after October 14 which is the last day of freedom for Linkedin groups. A sad day indeed.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 8, 2015 5:33 pm
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thank you, John for keeping forum going, though I haven't contributed to-date I do read discussions etc. with great interest!
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Posted by Will Krespan (Discussions: 0, Comments: 1)
Replied on October 9, 2015 3:22 pm
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Thanks Will and everyone for the encouraging words. I do not want to move this group and would not even consider it if it were not for the fact that my goals and the goals of Linkedin are at odds.

There are a huge number of group owners who are now very, very upset with what Linkedin is doing and it looks like many of them want to leave. The fundamental complaint is that all groups are now closed groups and the content is not visible to google so that content can be shared freely and the biggest complaint is that the new policies will drive spam into the group and I will not be able to moderate except after the fact. This group has no spam because I delete it before it makes it in.

I and another group manager are making setting changes to force moderation of all postings but I am not certain that our efforts will not be wasted by this so called new and improved groups at Linkedin. The changes they are making take place this coming Wednesday. We will quickly know what the changes really mean.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 9, 2015 3:32 pm
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John, I agree that LinkedIn is making some serious mistakes and basically killing discussion groups as we know them. There are a lot similar discussions going on in other groups focused on group owners and moderators and many owners wish there was an alternative to LinkedIn. I applaud that you had a contingency plan in place.

I belong to many groups. Many of the groups I belong to do not have a spam problem, either because they are too small to attract the spammers or too esoteric to be of interest to spammers. After trying other alternatives to full moderation to control spam, I am convinced that full moderation is the only thing that works. I concur with your approach to running the group.

LinkedIn is eliminating the idea of sub-groups and eliminating many of the search capabilities. I am glad you have found a way to support a robust search function.
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Posted by Scott Farrelly (Discussions: 16, Comments: 208)
Replied on October 9, 2015 3:41 pm
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Terry, the new group at http://www.limsforum.com is basically up and running but is not ready for use. Feel free to go see the group. It is on the home page.

The new group is kept in sync with the Linkedin group and I have a group manager who is going through and setting all members to Moderation Required status. This should force moderation. This will allow us to cease taking any further postings on the Linkedin group and redirect everyone to http://www.limsforum.com

I am taking great pains to make sure the User Experience is equal or better than Linkedin. We have all the content and all the members so the tough part of changing habits now begins. A seamless experience is an absolute must.

I have no doubt there will be issues and problems and I encourage everyone who finds a problem to post it publicly in the new group (assuming the site itself does not break). I will get right on the reported problems and fix them. This is going to be a royal pain but I think it is worth it in the end because we will no longer be subject to the whims of Linkedin.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 9, 2015 3:59 pm
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I would appreciate any help anyone can provide in testing the new site. We have the discussion forum basically working now. All of the content from this group is now in the new site. I have posted a test message into the new site: http://www.limsforum.com/forum/test-discussion-at-the-new-limsforum-site/

Please go visit it and post your own comments directly to my test discussion. I want to test notifications and moderation. All help is really appreciated.
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 10, 2015 11:47 am
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This discussion thread has moved to our new discussion site at:
http://www.limsforum.com/forum/the-limsforum-group-is-moving-from-linkedin/

Please continue this and all other discussions at our new site. It is really easy and you can login with your existing Linkedin account. No need to signup, so you can start posting and reading discussions immediately so please visit our new site at: http://www.limsforum.com
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Posted by John Jones (Discussions: 368, Comments: 3072)
Replied on October 10, 2015 11:47 am
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