Informatics Educational Institutions & Programs

I apologize for not helping you out for the A&M page. I too feel burnt out. I appreciate your hard work on Wikipedia and I admire how much dedication you have put into this community. Happy New Year. Oldag07 (talk) 05:05, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Oldag07: IMNSHO, Wikipedia has become a society of gatekeepers who have built an empire constructed with rules designed to tear down the work of others so they can feel morally superior rather than people who collaborate to build something (as we did in the heyday of WP). The Wikimedia Foundation doesn't seem to realize their project has morphed under the guise of WP:RS into an oppressive regime of unnecessary precision/bureaucratic doublespeak wielded to punish opponents or lessers. This FAR is merely a symptom... and I don't see these people relinquishing that power. Buffs (talk) 05:14, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I scratch my wiki editing itch on Fandom. I actually am an Administrator on the Civilization video game series wiki. https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Civilization_Games_Wiki I must admit, some fandom sites can be even more dictatorial and unwelcoming. I found one which definitely welcomes changes and doesn't chase people off. Sometimes it feels like the old days. and if you can't find a wiki of your liking, make a new one. Oldag07 (talk) 05:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is an unsolicited response, so feel free to revert. But I've been watching the A&M FAR and FAC -- though not commenting because it's not one of my areas of interest -- and absolutely agree with your complaints about how opaque FAC is. And I'm increasingly worried that if this is not all by design, then there's been a massive capitulation of coordinators' duties. Where else on Wikipedia is there such an existential aversion to working on the encyclopedia? GANs routinely have reviewers make grammar corrections and fix up sources -- that happened at my most recent one, but it happens all the time. DYK reviews have people fix sourcing and review images ... and if those images are incorrectly licensed, people just fix them. But FAC is just a series of unactionable complaints and unwritten norms, which requires one to speak in a secret language to decode, and make massive concessions with no basis in policy or encyclopedic writing. What other process makes it all but required to have shepherds guide newbies?

I remember nominating an article recently, and I was told that it reads poorly. I asked how. And I was told that FACs aren't supposed to substantially improve or change the article, despite that literally being acceptable per their own rules. It's a black hole of effort for those who don't accede to random demands or speak their language. Urve (talk) 05:19, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Urve: Glad I'm not alone. I think my biggest concern is what I expressed above: fiefdom-building. In that manner, WP is slowly walling itself off and elitists, while stating they want to improve WP, are actually hindering expansion efforts and improvements in the interests of attempting to achieve perfection and without risk (which is, in reality, unachievable). I've seen this build slowly for 10+ years. For example, people nominate files (images mostly) for deletion because they don't meet some criteria. The nominators and admins who delete it fail to consider and often refuse to take the time to understand copyright law, often erring so far on the side of safety as to be completely unreasonable (I once demonstrated a file was in the public domain as the image was clearly within the defined guidelines. The response was "By just over a year...barely" and a vote to delete it because it was "just too close"...the file and its talk page were ultimately deleted).

It's massively easier to criticized the work of others than make substantive improvements.

Given your interests, I think we're probably on opposite sides of the political spectrum (and I'm glad we have a forum like this to talk with each other!). The fact that we both see this, despite our [likely significant] differences in opinion, does not bode well for WP. Buffs (talk) 17:49, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we probably are. But I'm with you about fiefdom-building, and speaking in terms of content fiefdoms, that's especially true in my areas of interest. Take a look at articles like Rapid-onset gender dysphoria controversy and J. K. Rowling to see versions of our own Kowloon. Man for boring edit warring in its history. There are more egregious examples.

I've given up on ArbCom or the admin corps doing anything about having little autonomous communities trying to wall themselves out; why take action against those who are "right"? And it's hard to not understand why. If anyone were in charge of an entire encyclopedia, they'd probably want their own versions of truth stated as fact. I can't blame you if this is the end of editing for you - despite our [probable] disagreements on many things, the openness of editing is what makes this place valuable. This isn't some plea for absolute liberal inclusionism -- WP:NONAZIS is probably good guidance, man-woman marriage userboxes are probably needlessly divisive, people who can't accept when reliable sources disagree with them aren't here with our core values in mind -- but you're not someone I'd exclude. We should have internal disagreements on the project; when we all work together to create a work product, there will be contradictions, based on who we are as people and what we value, but there's always, always value in contradiction. Urve (talk) 19:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Buffs,

I saw the FAC for A&M three days ago, and I just want to tell you that it isn't all bad. Sure, the reviewers appeared less than constructive when it came to the nom, but consensus is consensus and there's no viable way to get around that. It sucks, I know, but don't let it go to your head. The article deserves to be a FA but there is no point dissenting with the coordinators. If I were you, I'd try to get it approved for GA class or A class at least to show off your achievements. I am 100% sure that the article will pass through those noms with flying colors. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 18:34, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@CollectiveSolidarity: I'm not interested in dissenting with the coordinator. All I want is a clear explanation so I can address any shortcomings and an explanation how he determined consensus as it is perplexingly opaque to me.

Lastly, your support would have been appreciated for FA. I have no intention of going through an additional A/GA process. This article already had GA a LONG time ago. Buffs (talk) 17:40, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did not know that I could support it, because I thought only coordinators could. However, I will support it next time it appears. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 19:47, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@CollectiveSolidarity: Would you like me to inform you next time I put it up? (just for clarity so I'm not accused of canvassing) Buffs (talk) 20:12, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I check the WP:FAC noticeboards every now and then, so when it reappears again, I'll take a look at the discussion. But although I support the article as it stands, there may still be some overlooked concerns that other editors will notice. If that is the case, I will hold off my decision until you (or I) fix the issues. Cheers! CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 20:36, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@CollectiveSolidarity: I'll take any feedback you have now. What changes have been asked for are currently unclear and I've asked for clarification. It feels very much like "do it my way or it isn't approved" overrides consensus. Buffs (talk) 21:58, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here I came to tell you how pleased I am to see Texas A&M University on the Main page, and now this. Best wishes for what you do, but I for sure would prefer being with us. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:32, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see it on the main page...*scratches his head* As for leaving, I'm going to confine my activities to a smaller set. But given the bias being shown here, I doubt it will ever change. Would you like to be notified next time I nom for FA? Buffs (talk) 04:14, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have been saying much the same as you. I hope you keep editing, and do not let them silence you.

Lightburst (talk) 18:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Without more conservative voices, leftist politics will prevail masquerading as WP:NPOV. As John Stossel pointed out, any altruism or sense of equality is simply gone. Buffs (talk) 22:53, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you continue editing. Not all hope is lost! Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 20:10, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned with Lightburst, at this point, we have pushed to the point where leftism is dominant on WP and it's practically just a numbers game. WP:RS has not changed, but those controlling the levers have decided to label anything conservative as "unreliable" and anything leftist "reliable". It's a similar game across all of media. Fox News is no more right than the New York Times is left, but one is considered the gold standard and the other derided. This will not change until people realize the echo chamber they are creating. Buffs (talk) 22:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Buffs, it sucks that this is happening on Wikipedia. I believe that it would be fine to add all sources in most circumstances; we must maintain WP:NPOV. But if there are any information that is contradicting, make a note about it in the article, i.e "New York Times claims that ....." and then "Fox News claims that .....", and vice versa. Seems a lot more neutral, right? Also, we can always use DRN or RFC when in doubt. Would that help? Also, welcome back to being unblocked! Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 06:46, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly don't advocate for violating NPOV, but when you define the conversation as left = neutral, you aren't achieving NPOV. I've had zero success with RfCs or DRN. Buffs (talk) 19:48, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, let me know in my talk page when anything in that nature occurs. I will try my best to help you. Best of luck, Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 22:14, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

noted; thanks Buffs (talk) 20:48, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]